Greg ‘Pappy’ Boyington Stories
This thread is noteworthy, not so much for any drinking stories about Pappy, but rather for Jack Cook’s comments on Pappy’s character, and for the subtle exposure of one commenter as a ‘poseur’ by another participant.
Stories about Pappy – by pags
When reading stories about Pappy, there is little wonder why this guy became a legend. His own book is of course a classic. I laughed out loud while reading how he used to take a nap on long patrols, his plane kept steady by pieces of string used to keep the trim tabs in place!
In a documentary about VMF-214 a wingman of Pappy’s had said something like “When Greg flicked his cigarette out of the canopy, we knew the enemy was near.”
If you got some good Boyington stories- share them! This seems like the right place for it .
A developing friendship, by guspen@crtelco.net
I met Pappy at an airshow on 2/1/80 when on my first long cross country. I landed at the Chandler AZ airport and noticed that a fly-in was in progress. While being fueled up, I visited some of the booths at the show. I asked a gentleman at one of the booths, if he would mind signing my pilot log book to prove i had, in fact been there. He said “sure I will, in all my years of flying, I have never signed a students log book. As a matter of fact, let me get my friend Mike Kawato to sign it too”. I thought I was going to lose it when I saw his signature and could hardly believe it was my number one Hero of all time, Pappy Boyington. We began following air shows anytime we knew Pappy was going to be there. A couple of years later, while having dinner with Pappy, I asked him where he was last year, because we had missed him. He stated with a grin ” I was on my way to that show, when all of a sudden that damned pickup and trailer did a snap roll on me” I said, you weren’t drinking were you. He just smiled and said “What do you think Gus? I still have the log book.
Stories about Pappy – by Pappyfan
We became friends with Pappy at Harlingen TX. (CAF 77) He and my father hit it off and I was in Hog heaven. The whole four days hanging out with wanna-be aces and the real thing! George Gay (Sole Survivor Torpedo Eight Midway) was at the party too!! On Monday after the show Dad took Pappy to Brownsville to catch a flight back home and Pappy had a little issue with breakfast (brown bottle flu?). I was so proud to ride all the way back to Arkansas in the back seat of Dads T-6 (Harvard mkIV) next to some of Pappy Boyington’s Puke!! I spent most of the next summer with Pappy and Jo, I was 14 years old and traveling to airshows around the country! I have a few more stories and they all involve alcohol (imagine that). He was a drunk, but he was good to me and I loved him!!
Stories about Pappy – by Twitch
In 1987 he was at the Fullerton Air Show in California. He was doing the signing thing but had to take breaks to catch his breath or spit up. He had cancer then and didn’t have a lot of time.
Mike Kawato was there with the “I shot down Pappy” stuff and his book. I asked Boyington about it. Ok, true this- Pappy looked at me and said, ” I never seen that Jap before in my life.” So make of that what you will. I took it to mean he was not the guy that shot him down.
Stories about Pappy – by Jack Cook
Are you kidding? Any true Boyington fanatic should know the facts unless your turning a blind eye.
Lets see….A lifelong drunk (not a problem drinker a true drunk), writer of numerous bad checks which would have got him kicked out of the Marines in disgrace if it were not for the AVG which did, cheated on how many wives now many times? Confirmed his own fraudulent kills. Cozied up to his prison guards to get special access to a warm area (kitchen) and extra food while his fellow POWs froze and starved. He’s only credited has the top Marine because Walton let him get away with confirming his own kills. It even spelled out in Gamble’s book quote with a stroke of his pen he made himself the top marine ace. Heck, getting to Marine HQ and amending the squadron war diary to make himself the top ace was more important than getting the MOH which BTW should be rescinded because it was awarded partially for kills he never made.
I repeat-liar, cheat, fraud and drunk. End of story. My cousin was a Marine ace in WWII who was KIA. He was a man of courage, honor and duty. Attributes Boyington had none of.
Stories about Pappy – by Twitch
Boyington was no gem for sure. Thing is there were lots of people that accomplished above average military feats who were no choirboys. They were human beings with the flaws we all have.
General George Patton could be classified as an azzhole too but his accomplishments just for that one stretch of time when his talent was needed to accomplish a goal far outweighs his personal personality. So it is with Boyington and many others. When he was in the zone flaming Japs no one could fault him. Like most of our aerial heroes we pretty much don’t care about what they did outside the cockpit. That stuff just makes a book thicker.
Stories about Pappy – by Jack Cook
WITHOUT A DOUBT JUST BECAUSE YOUR AN ACE DOESN’T MAKE YOU AN ANGEL. THERE’S ACES WHO’VE KILLED PEOPLE DRIVING DRUNK , TRIED TO HICKJACK AIRPLANES, ROBBED BANKS, TRIED TO BURN DOWN X-WIFE’S HOUSE WITH HER IN IT ECT. BUT THAT’S NOT THE POINT. THE SUBJECT IS PAPPY BOYINGTON AND THE HERO WORSHIP HE RECEIVES. THE WHOLE IDEA OF YOU GUYS WORSHIPING HIM LIKE A GOD IS WAY BEYOND MY COMPREHENSION. PICK SOMEONE WHO DESERVES IT LIKE MARION CARL. I’VE GOT A GOOD FRIENDS WHO’S PROBABLY THE WORLD’S FOREMOST EXPERT ON CORSAIRS AND WHO’S LATE FATHER WAS AN ACE AND VERY ACTIVE IN THE FIGHTER ACES AND THEIR AFFAIRS BEFORE HIS PASSING. BELOW ARE SOME QUOTES FROM HIM:
How right you are!
The Japanese interpreter used him has a tool to get himself out of Rabaul.
Another sad truth is that he confirmed at least 14 of his own kills including the 5 in one mission. Which all of course was used for his MOH citation. Also after he returned and was in DC for the awards ceremony, he went straight to Marine Corps HQ were he made Walton, the IO, add the 2 kills to the last mission combat report then signed has CO instantly making himself the top marine ace.
If you read Gamble’s books on Boyington and VMF-214 he spells word for word what kills of his did and which didn’t have witness or corroborating evidence. 10-12 of 28 did.
NOW IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE AVG THAT COULD TAKE DAYS. I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO FIND A SINGLE AVG VET (OTHER THAN OLGA) WHO THOUGHT HE WAS WORTH A DAMN.. DID ANY OF YOU GUYS READ GAMBLE’S BOOK OR DID YOU THROW IT DOWN AT THE FIRST NEGATIVE WORD SAID OF THE GODLIKE HERO PAPPY BOYINGTON??? THE IDEA OF HIM MAKING OUT THE MEN OF VMF-214 (ESPECIALLY THE ONES WHO GAVE THEIR LIVES FOR OUR FREEDOM) TO BE DRUNKS, LOSERS, REJECTS WHO WERE AWAITING COURT MARTIALS JUST TO MAKE A BUCK SHOULD MAKE ALL OF YOU RETHINK HIS DESERVING OF YOUR WORSHIP OF HIM.
Stories about Pappy – by Twitch
Well frankly I worship all the combat aviators on all sides aces or not. I don’t know why you need to holler with the capital letters. Boyington’s squadron mates were made out to be what Hollywood wanted them to be, not what Pappy wanted them to be. No one ever alluded to them in any negative way until the TV show. His book doesn’t degrade any of their records. The public’s perception and marketing gave Boyington an elevated status long before anyone here did. Talking to his old squadron mates at symposiums does not unleash a torrent of hate either so if they’re OK with it why can’t we all be?
There are people out there that are astounded by us combat history fans actually admiring Saburo Sakai- no good jap heathen! or Adolf Galland- a Nazi for sure! or Arsenii Vorozheykin- a commie!
Stories about Pappy – by Jack Cook
As for ALL CAPS, I use them on occasion to see better.
I feel very fortunate to make someone to look up like my cousin Capt Don Owen who downed 5 planes with Joe Foss in VMF-121 and Hap Hansen in VMF-112. KIA May 26, 1945 over Japan. No, I don’t worship him (he wasn’t a god) but I do respect him has a man and do my best to honor his memory.
Stories about Pappy – by B.N.
by Jack Cook: “Are you kidding? Any true Boyington fanatic should know the facts unless your turning a blind eye. Lets see….A lifelong drunk ….”
I gave your post to one of the Black Sheep members and this was his reply:
How can some joker say these things about Greg Boyington? I am sure this A*****e never had the guts to fight for his country in war time. Everything he said is a big lie!!
If it hadn’t been for men like Greg Boyington this joker would be speaking Japanese or German as his national language today.
I flew with Greg for our 10 week tour in the Pacific. He was one of the greatest fighter pilots this country has ever seen.
Greg NEVER confirmed his own kills! As a matter of fact I confirmed four of his kills. You mentioned Gamble’s book, Bruce is a good friend of mine, however, we sure differ on many of his writings.
I am sure if Boyington had not been shot down, and been a POW for two years, we would have a Navy Carrier or Battleship named after him today.
I was a friend of Joe Foss, and also Marion Carl. Both were great guys, and great pilots. I think Marion was the best pilot the Marine Corps ever had. Keep in mind that we were only in combat for 10 weeks! Foss, Carl, Smith, Galer, Dobbin, etc. were in combat for over a year. However, if it hadn’t been for their defense of Guadalcanal we very well could have lost the Pacific. The Black Sheep, along with VMF-222, were the first squadrons to go against the Japs into their territory. The Guadalcanal defenders fought a defensive battle, we fought an offensive battle. The Black Sheep Squadron, put together by Greg Boyington, was probably the most combat experienced squadron ever to go into combat in any war. 1/3rd had 2 combat tours, 1/3 had one combat tour, and the rest of us were neophytes!
Many, many times in his later years, Greg spent New Year’s Eves at my house. He attended my daughter’s wedding, and my wife and I attended his wife Jo’s sons wedding. I NEVER in all of those years, saw him take a drink. Lots of coffee, but no alcohol.
What a great liar this ******* is. Greg was a true hero, who loved his country.
Semper Fi
From a Black Sheep who wouldn’t be alive today if it hadn’t been for Boyington’s leadership.
*********
This letter was heavily edited by this typist because this is a “G” rated site.
[Note by website owner: There is no verification of that letter. I do know Jack Cook, and he is who he says he is, i.e. an expert on World War Two aviation.]
Stories about Pappy – by Jack Cook
First of all I take no stock in posts from anonymous sources. They mean nothing.
Everything I said was a big lie. So…
1. He wasn’t a drunk (Ok hard core alcoholic)
2. He wasn’t of the verge of being kicked out of the Marines for all his debts among other things before he joined the AVG.
3. So he actually had a honorable discharge from the AVG and they all respected and admired him? I Don’t think so.
4. So didn’t have kills no one saw and Frank Walton took him at his word and wrote them up? Gamble says it was so and Frank said this was a fact. Yes I knew Frank in Hawaii!
5. I don’t believe Boyington’s presence for 3-4 months changed the course of the war in the pacific for a second. Great real.
6. A carrier or a battleship named after him? Are you nuts??
7. VMF’s 214 &222 were the first to go against the Japs in their own territory? I don’t think so. 5th and 13th AF were hitting the Japs in New Guinea, Rabaul and Bougainville long before they deployed.
8. VMF-214 wasn’t the most combat experienced squadron go to war. 475th FG was formed of combat experienced pilot from 5th AF fighter groups and new guys. VF-10 and VF-84 were reformed and established with a cadre of combat vets from VF-17 Jolly Roger and other combat vets. Don’t forget the 4th FG made up of Eagle Squadron Pilots all combat VETS
9. Since most of my statements are backed up by Gamble’s book do you hate him too?
10. Yes, I served. Oops you wrong here to. 12 years USN, 3 cruises, air warfare spec. qualified/aircrew 1000+ flying hours, served in Operation Desert Storm (hope that war was good enough for you, it was
all they were offering at the time) Learn to speak with fact not emotions. Boyington was a great fighter pilot but was lacking in most other categories.
Stories about Pappy – by John Bruning
Dear Fellow Aviation History Buffs,
Recently, quite a bit of vitriol has been evident on the posts regarding Pappy Boyington and his career. Jack Cook, who is well known amongst fellow historians for his incredible knowledge of U.S. fighter pilots and for his huge collection of original photographs he has gathered over the past three decades, has made some unpopular statements regarding Boyington’s career. His comments stem from Bruce Gamble’s excellent biography of Boyington, which while not as fun to read as Baa Baa Black Sheep, provides accurate and unique insight into this complicated man.
Before I go on, I’d like to explain a bit of my background. I grew up watching the Black Sheep Squadron series just like many of you, and when I was in 3rd grade, my folks’ birthday present to me was to have Pappy Boyington call me at the 94th Aero Squadron restaurant in San Jose to wish me happy birthday. I later saw him many times at air shows, and was heartbroken when he died of cancer. I ended up making a career out of my passion, and after school I wrote, among other things, a biography of 49th Fighter Group ace Gerald R. Johnson called Jungle Ace. I know both Jack personally and Bruce Gamble personally. They are great guys and BOTH served their country honorably. Jack is a Gulf War veteran, and was nearly killed on an earlier cruise during a flight deck accident aboard the USS Nimitz. I would suggest keeping the flaming personal attacks off this site, they accomplish nothing.
Now, over the years, I have had cause to interview many people who served around Boyington during his combat career. Several things stand out from those interviews: 1.) When drunk, he could be an absolutely vile human being. 2.) He was a very good squadron commander when he had VMF-214. 3.) He was a lost soul all his life. He never could handle the responsibilities and freedoms that come with being an adult. Anyone questioning that latter comment should reread Frank Walton’s book and Pappy’s remarks about being in a POW camp.
Let me expand on these points:
1. Boyington was a chronic alcoholic. This is absolutely true, there is nobody who can deny this. It affected his entire life as an adult and inhibited every career he chose. Had he been able to overcome his addiction, his life would have been much more successful. But, when he was drinking, he could be an absolutely reprehensible human being. During a lengthy interview with an AVG ace a few years ago, I learned that Boyington was removed from the AVG by Chennault the morning after a party that was held in their honor by Madame Chiang. Boyington, in an extreme drunken state, made a very vile pass at Madame Chiang, to the horror of everyone present. Making a pass at the wife of the Nationalist leader of China was stupid and embarrassing, but it was also indicative of how Boyington behaved under the influence of alcohol.
2. He was a good squadron commander. VMF-214’s combat career can attest to this. However, during an interview with General Marion Carl in 1991, I learned that by the time Boyington was shot down, he had developed The Twitch. On the morning he went missing, he approached Carl and begged him to let him take the day’s mission. Carl was slated to lead it, but he relented against his better judgment. Boyington had said to him that he knew he’d be going home soon, and he just wanted one more shot to beat Joe Foss’ record. Carl could see that combat fatigue had taken its toll on Boyington and had great misgivings letting him take his place. He did it anyway, and lived to regret it. The truth is that Boyington was burned out, and was still flying not for his men, but so that he could become the top USMC ace of the war. That personal ambition was present in many WWII aces, but the best ones always put their men first and did not seek out the spotlight. Hub Zemke and Gerald R. Johnson are two that come to mind who fit that latter profile.
As far as Boyington claiming phantom aircraft goes: it has happened before many times. As an example one need look no farther than at Marshall William “Billy” Bishop, whose 72 kills and VC are very suspect. Only three of Bishop’s claims can be confirmed by German records, and his VC was the only one awarded without any witnesses to his actions during WWI. If in the course of his research, Bruce Gamble discovered Boyington did the same thing with VMF-214, then my money is on Bruce. He is an excellent historian. I do know that the claims Boyington made in the AVG have long been suspect.
3. Boyington was a lost soul: One look at his post-war life, his broken careers, his days baiting crowds as a wrestling referee clearly demonstrate the veracity of this statement. Boyington’s own words reinforce it. In Baa Baa Black Sheep he states “Show me a hero, and I’ll show you a bum.” He was referring to himself and his own life. His drunken behavior served as a drag on his entire life and what he was able to accomplish. In the end, he was forced to live off his own fame, which was stoked by the TV show. Had there been no TV show about him, Boyington would probably about as well-known today as John L. Smith or Bob Galer. But, the TV show and the ensuing acclaim and hero-worship he received–and continues to receive–has warped his legacy and has distorted the understanding of who he was and what he accomplished during his combat career.
That said, there is NO possible way the U.S. Navy ever would have named a battleship or an aircraft carrier after Greg Boyington. First, battleships were named after states, not people. Second, aircraft carriers are named after national leaders (Stennis, Forrestal, Carl Vinson, Reagan)and major battles in American history (Lexington, Yorktown, Coral Sea, Midway, etc.). They are not named after squadron commanders who ended their military careers as majors. Becoming a POW did not inhibit Boyington’s career, many American POW’s of the Japanese went on to become admirals, generals and major public figures during the 1950’s, 60’s and 70’s. So to say that Boyington’s career was somehow negatively affected by that is simply not true.
As far as a ship, such as a frigate or destroyer, being named after Boyington, I doubt that it will ever happen. His alcoholism, and his abrasive character traits doomed the chance of that happening. As I said, his addiction profoundly impacted his life and his achievements.
Once you separate the public persona of “Pappy” and the actual truth about him, it is clear that Greg Boyington was a deeply flawed human being.
John Bruning
Stories about Pappy – by Twitch
“Boyington was a great fighter pilot but was lacking in most other categories.” No one ever said anything different. People here admired his skill in aircraft and not as a personal finance manager.
“…it is clear that Greg Boyington was a deeply flawed human being.” And so are overwhelming percentages of the general population. Again no one ever said he was perfect just that they enjoyed meeting him when they were younger.
Alcoholism is a disease. Detailing Greg’s faults when drunk is meaningless. Those kind of things are mirrored by many many drunks. If HE acknowledged he was an alcoholic why beat it to death?
If he was a bad leader in the air then VMF 214 would have reflected it. It didn’t.
Just how does one researcher figure that anyone could get away with no gun camera film or confirmation from another pilot in the USMC, which was the rule at the time, and then have the Victory Claims Board in Washington accept that without question? And don’t say it was the haste of wartime. The Board is STILL researching claims and adjusting tallies from WW 2 and almost every year a new ace is made after they’ve reviewed combat accounts.
I knew several Marines in my outfit that were busted many times and were holy terrors in the Saigon bars and in personal lives. So? That didn’t detract one bit from their willingness to expose themselves to fire if it meant assisting a pal. Being a drunkard or immature-minded screw up does not automatically mean you are poor in combat.
My friend Capt. Ralph Wandrey flew wing for Dick Bong often and was alone once in a P-47 when he came upon 10 Zekes in 2 columns going slow to let down and land. He opened up the 8 guns and flamed all 10 using up all his ammo. Upon return it was found that his film showed only dark and light flashes. Rain the night before had damaged it. He got credit for 10 probables, not 10 kills. No body gave him credit for the kills just because he “confirmed” them.
I would imagine that a website with a topic thread created by the webmaster regarding Boyington would be focused on some positive things about him and was not created so folks could solely bitch and moan about him only. One guy mentions what a thrill it was to meet Pappy when he was 14 years old, for crissake, and a guy goes ballistic! An then he just keeps hatefully ragging on it like he’s fixated on Boyington in some personal crusade to defame him. Talk about small, petty and hate-filled. Pappy isn’t the only one with flaws, huh?
[Another note by the website owner: While I edited most of these threads, I left Twitch’s post here as is. In the following post, Bruning exposes Twitch as a poseur.]
Stories about Pappy – by John Bruning
Dear Twitch,
Your posting was most interesting, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Of course, everyone is entitled to admire whomever they would like, be that person a straight-laced tea-totaller, or a raging drunk. My guess is that Jack wanted to point out that there is another side to the Boyington story, one that stems from Bruce Gamble’s well-received and reviewed book.
I would like to make one small point. Ralph Wandrey never, NEVER, shot down ten Zeroes during his tour in New Guinea. Nor did he ever receive credit for 10 probables. I devoted ten years of my life to researching and writing about Wandrey’s squadron commander, Gerald R. Johnson, first for my grad school thesis, then later for my second book. I have copies of every surviving document the 9th Squadron produced during WWII; I have Wandrey’s book; I interviewed just about every surviving pilot from the 9th who was still alive in the 1990’s, including Wandrey. There is no scrap of evidence, no documentary support and no oral confirmation from anyone (including Wandrey who described that mission to me in vastly different terms) that he ever claimed 10 planes in one mission. Nor does he have 10 probables total to his credit. Wandrey is a great guy, and I enjoyed our interview quite a bit.
Oh, and incidentally, there were no Zero units in New Guinea at the time this event took place. Not that Wandrey or the other pilots would have known that at the time since so little was known about the JAAF. Basically, after August of ’42, the JAAF took over responsibility for New Guinea, while the JNAF focused on the Solomons. The next time JNAF Zero units were deployed to New Guinea came in the spring of ’44 when a group was dispatched to Biak. They did not last long. This is a very minor point, and almost every USAAF pilot who flew in New Guinea claimed Zeroes not realizing they were actually Ki-43 Hayabusas. Same thing when the 68th Sentai arrived with Ki-61 Hiens. The initial reaction in the summer of ’43 by the pilots of the 5th Air Force was that they were Bf-109’s, which were code-named “Mike”. Later, the Ki-45 caused even more confusion and until one was captured at Cape Gloucester in January ’44, nobody was sure if it was a fighter version of the Ki-46 or a new type altogether.
I do not know if the Marine squadrons in 1943 were using gun camera film on each mission or not. I do know that there was a general shortage of film at that time in the South Pacific and SWPA theaters. Additionally, the heat and humidity destroyed much of the film that did arrive.
What Marine unit did you belong to? Did you serve in Vietnam?
Thanks,
John Bruning
Stories about Pappy – by Jack Cook
No one said Boyington was a bad leader or pilot, in fact just the opposite.
Has for victories, there is no victory claims board in Washington.
For Navy and Marine units at the time in the Pacific squadron IO’s (intelligence officer i.e. Frank Walton) had the final word on combat claims. Even if there wasn’t an eyewitness he could and often did award a confirmed kill to a pilot. He flat out told me on one of my visits to him in Hawaii that he didn’t recall any time he denied any one of Boyington’s claims, witness or not. There is no board going over combat claims. The Fighter Aces has an UNOFFICIAL claims board that is not recognized by any branch of service. The AF i.e. AFHRC has confirmed some WWII claims (I’m working with them on one case now) but I know of no post- WWII newly minted aces outside the AFAA.
I’m not ragging on some 14 years old kid over his hero Pappy. I’m stating opinions based upon fact and relating accurate information based research by numerous historians and eyewitness accounts of the participants to grown-ups who don’t seem to be able to separate fact from fiction.
BTW Ralph Wandry had only 1 claim while flying P-47s. He had 5 confirmed and 2 probables all flying P-38s. He had one kill over a Zero at Wewak on March 13, 1944. Sorry, no 10 probables.
Stories about Pappy – by Twitch
John- My error on the official probables, it’s 2, but the fact remains about the incident of gunning the string of planes and not receiving credit and the gun film being bad. Write him a note if you know him and no one believes it. I’ve heard the same story from Ralph privately and at public symposiums from him on 3 occasions. If someone says this is untrue it’s calling me and him liars. Fine.
Boyington was drinker and was in good company. Anyone who has ever been to Friends Of American Fighter Aces yearly get togethers for the past couple decades can attest to the fact that fighter pilots are hard drinkers even now in their later years. I know of more than one alcoholic by definition who is an ace. I’ve watched my heroes get falling down drunk at some of those deals and never thought the less of them. If that would affect someone else’s opinion of, say, a 21.5 victory ace, fine.
We all know there was an ugly side to Boyington. No one has ever denied that. Hell, he never denied that. Who cares? It’s about what he and any other aces did while they were at work in the cockpit that defines them not whether they became presidents of fertilizer companies or turned into screwed up alcoholics.
And yes I went through Pendleton and was attached to Kilo Company of 3rd Recon Batt. of 3rd Div. up north in the area of Khe Sanh- 69-70. Talk about screw ups and dregs of society, geez we had our share. A 17 year old kid from a screwed up home that that signed him into the Marines and was more of a man than most of us ever were. An M-60 guy that never let us down with heavy cover fire no matter what the circumstances. Ex-thieves, heavy drinkers, slightly unstable mentally- they were all there. But the personal problems and the rest was dropped when it counted. Nobody complained about Sandman’s bad attitude when he was covering their back. When the Viking was laying down 7.62s it was forgotten that he made racial jokes when drunk.
Yes they were average guys thrust into a bad situation and had tons of flaws that even affected their lives after they went home- like Boyington. Psychotic episodes, robbery, drug dependence, assault, suicide- come on there’s more! But I don’t care about that. I remember the honest camaraderie and shared the don’t-give-a-damn attitude we needed to survive. Does what they did in combat reflect that one committed suicide, another became a strong arm for a loan shark, and another killed himself with drugs, and yet another went nuts? Not to me, pal. They were my heroes, flaws and all.
I never cared how verbally abusive Bull was when he was negotiating with bar girls. I cared about his relentlessness when it came to eliminating Charlie. I never cared Smokey grew up in a black neighborhood and had a juvie criminal record. I cared that he was one of the best on listening post for 2 weeks of stealth and ultra quiet. He moved like a panther. I never cared the Viking drank way too much on R&R in Hawaii and got into fights and was busted several times. I cared about the way he unflinchingly stood exposed time after time with his weapon to command a field of fire that never once failed our squad.
[Website owner: Don’t miss Bruning’s further questions to Twitch about his “Vietnam experiences” below. It’s quite comical actually.]
We didn’t care what anyone thought of us back then and I don’t now. I frankly don’t care if Boyington or any fighter pilot was bad or good in personal life or whatever anyone else thinks. It has no relevance to his or any pilot’s cockpit performance.
Stories about Pappy – by Jack Cook
MY COUSIN, ON HIS 2ND TOUR IN VIET NAM IN 1970 WAS FLYING CH-46 SEA KNIGHTS. HE WAS SHOT DOWN ONCE OR TWICE FLYING SUPPLIES INTO KAE SAHN AND TRYING TO GET THE CASUALITIES OUT. I THINK I’M MORE TOUCHY ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF PAPPY BOYINGTON BECAUSE OF THE NUMBER OF MARINES IN MY FAMILY WHO WERE EITHER MIA/WIA OR KIA. I’VE GOT A SECOND COUSIN WHOSE A MIA IN KOREA HAS A BAR MAN IN THE 1ST DIV AT CHOISEN REV.
FOR 10 WEEKS OF PAPPY’S LIFE WITH THE BLACK SHEEP HE WAS POSSIBLY THE BEST FIGHTER LEADER WE HAD. BUT, THAT’S A SHORT PERIOD IN A LIFETIME. I THINK HE GREATEST ACCOMPLISHMENT WAS STOPPING DRINKING. THAT TAKE REAL COURAGE AND GAVE HIM SOMEWHAT OF A LIFE IN HIS PAST FEW YEARS. IT JUST GRIPES MY HIND QUARTERS WHEN SOME BASE THEIR OPINIONS UPON THE TV SHOW.
I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT RALPH WANDRY TOLD THAT STORY TO YOU. I’VE VISITED WITH HIM ON A FEW OCCASIONS AND ENJOYED HIM VERY MUCH. BUT, I WAS WARNED BY A FEW PILOTS OF THE 9TH FS THAT HE’S A REAL STORY TELLER (BLEV LEWELLING & MAC MCELROY TO NAME A COUPLE). IT’S SORTA LIKE THAT FISH YOU CAUGHT, IT’S JUST GETS BIGGER EVERY TIME YOU TELL THE STORY. AS A HISTORIAN I’M ALSO KEEN TO BOTH LEARN THE TRUTH AND TO DISEMINATE IT.
Stories about Pappy – by John Bruning
Hi Twitch,
3rd Recon Bn????!!! Hey, I went to school with a guy from Echo Company. Not sure if he was there at the same time you were or not. This was well after the war in the 1980’s. I sat with him at the U of O (Oregon) in a Civil War class, and I remember him commenting on how over 400 generals were killed between 1861-65 and how that contrasted with Vietnam when two were killed. He got pretty upset as this thread continued in class, and then burst out, “It was a God@@@@@ disgrace!”-> that most generals did not put themselves in harm’s way during Vietnam. That was a pretty cool class. We had two Vietnam vets, the Marine & an AH-1 Army helicopter pilot, plus a WWII GI who was getting his degree in French. He’d been in the 7th Army during WWII and had landed in Southern France in August, 1944. What a cool group of guys. I’ve lost touch with them all now, but I remember that class quite fondly.
Anyway, I ended up interviewing him for a project the following year for a class on the Vietnam Era. He mentioned that one of the company commanders, he would not say who, ended up getting relieved at Khe Sanh for beating the crap out of a grunt. I don’t really recall the situation, but I do remember the Marine ended up hospitalized. Was that in your company? Were you there when it happened? I’d love to hear the story from another perspective.
Thanks,
John B.
Stories about Pappy – by Greg_P
Happy New Year to you too, Jack. I’ll revive anything you want, but not out of choice.
I just think a forum with the name Pappy Boyington should be a place where you might want to praise him or leave it alone. If you don’t, then by all means, jump on it. I think there are MANY great fighter pilots out there who were not great people out of uniform. Some WERE, in spades.
This forum is about fighter pilots, not about life after the war. Many claims were false, I’d say about half. That’s less than Boyington’s supposed bad claims. If you look at the claims that are supported by enemy losses, almost ALL fighter pilots were liars.
I prefer to think that they claimed what they saw at the time. If I shot at plane that sprouted fire and started down, I’d probably claim it, too.
Pappy was not a paragon of virtue during or after the war, but he WAS a very good fighter pilot. If you think otherwise, make your case. Otherwise, this thread is in praise of Pappy’s fighter pilot prowess, and not about drinking or anything else.
He flew very well and had as good a time as he could while doing it. What’s wrong with that? By the way, the US Marines credit him with 28 victories, regardless of what anyone else (who wasn’t there …) says. Personally, I think Joe Foss was the highest Marine pilot, but the Marines think it was Pappy. That’s enough for me to respect his prowess, whether it was first, second, or third, and should be for you, too.
I wouldn’t vote him “man of the year,” but I WOULD say he was a great fighter pilot when we needed one.
Stories about Pappy – by Jack Cook
Limiting the Pappy forum to WWII only sounds like a poor idea to me. But them again the only person who can make a decision on who posts what is the webmaster. Imagine not being able to post about the worst TV show ever made or take about his mistress’s name paint on the side of #86. Can you imagine talking about Chris Magee and leaving out the IAF and his multitude of other adventures. The Marine Corps knows good and well who really was their top ace. Marion Carl and Bob Galer along with many others pushed hard to have them give the proper title to Joe Foss but all their efforts were rebuffed. The reason given to them was that such an act would reflect poorly upon the Corps. Which is interesting has they couldn’t wait to rid themselves of him in 1941.
I wouldn’t say that all fighter pilots were liars, but a few names do come to mind!
Stories about Pappy – by Rich A
Getting back to actual stories about Greg “Pappy” Boyington. This very minor story meant something to me personally and I’d like to share it with the “Boyington” crowd.
My dad served in WW II in the South Seas. He saw action in a lot of the island combat. He was with the Americal division, and between building and re-building airstrips, and fighting the Japs, he also did some combat photography. When I was young, I remember many nights watching “Victory at Sea” with dad. There would be shots of battleship canons blasting the islands before invasion and dad would say, ” That looks like one of my shots”. Or “I was there”. I would smile and silently say to myself, “The old man’s war stories get the bigger with age”.
Later on, we were watching the first showing of the TV series, “Baa Baa Black Sheep” staring Robert Conrad. The first time we watched it dad said, “You know I met the ‘real’ Pappy Boyington in the war.” Dad went on to say, “I was telling him about my girl back home and how we were going to get married as soon as I got back. We only talked for a few minutes and even though he was already pretty well known, he was not a very fancy guy. Just a regular guy like the rest of us”.
I just smiled again. My dad was just an Army PFC who carried a rifle in one hand and his camera in the other. What the heck would he be doing talking to a Marine pilot? But then every time they mentioned any island in the Victory at Sea documentary, dad would say he was there. So who knows? Maybe he bumped into the guy for real?
Fast-forward about 50 years. Dad passed away and it was up to me to take care of things being the eldest of his two sons. Mom was pretty sick and of course devastated. While cleaning out his closet I came across an old shoebox. Inside was a pile of medals and bars for various South Seas battles, including Guadalcanal. There were also some documents, his discharge papers (he spent two years in those jungles), and two written citations from the Secretary of Defense and if I remember correctly the President. Plus some personal stuff, including a very flattened and worn old wallet.
In the wallet was a picture of a gal who was later to become my mother. It was the only thing in the wallet. I showed it to mom and she said, “Your dad carried that picture with him throughout the entire war. When he came back he spent 10 months in the hospital recovering from all kinds of jungle complications and diseases. But as soon as he could get out of bed we got married”.
Then she pulled the picture out of the wallet and on the back of it was signed, “Greg ‘Pappy’ Boyington.”
Defending Boyington, by f4ucorsair1980
I am a 25-year-old lover of history and a budding freelance writer. Right now I am working on a historical fiction story about Boyington and the day he led the mission against the Japanese airbase at Kahili.
Now for a story about Pappy I heard from a Marine vet who shops at my store:
This gentleman served in WWII in the Pacific and was called up from the reserves for Korea. At Camp Pendelton (IIRC) one day, he was at the officers club when none other than Pappy Boyington showed up!
He said he gave him and the Marine he was sitting with some whiskey on the sly from the booze stocks Boyington was selling at the time. He didn’t consider Pappy a thief (though no doubt Pappy’s boss thought so). He just grinned when he told me about it.
Richard
Stories about Pappy – by johnbruning
Gentlemen,
I would strongly suggest leaving aside the personal attacks on Jack Cook. Devoting effort to whaling on somebody on the internet without demonstrating the courage to sign your own name to your post does not do anyone any good. No does it promote a rational and fact based discussion of the topic at hand.
As for whoever moderates this forum, I would ask that he counsel everyone to restrain themselves from launching personal attacks so that a healthy debate on Boyington might be cultivated.
John Bruning
Stories about Pappy – Tell me your takes on the Black Sheep at Kahili, by f4ucorsair1980
Okay, to try to make this debate civilized… So tell me your takes on the Black Sheep at Kahili, Messers. Cook and Bruning. It is the event in my story, one that I read of in both Boyington’s and Walton’s books (and is mentioned prominently in Boyington’s MOH citation, a copy of which I read here at:
http://www.users.voicenet.com/~lpadilla/boyington.html ).
If one of you could send me a translated copy of the Japanese after action report for the battle of Kahili, I would be very much obliged too.
Richard Krebes
Long Lake, Minnesota, USA
P.S. Sincerest apologies for any hurt feelings. R.K.
Stories about Pappy – by johnbruning
Richard,
As I mentioned in a private e-mail, if you are serious about your craft and your desire to become a published author, the first step you need to take is survey the historiography of your subject matter. The official Japanese history of the war, which is a multi-volume series, is available in most good university libraries with an East Asian collection. Much of the misperceptions we still have of WWII in the Pacific, including the myths of the Battle of Midway perpetuated by Fuchida and the 1976 movie, were dispelled in Japan back in the 70’s when this work was completed. That they have not been translated yet is one of the reasons why there is still a huge disconnect and competing understandings of the Pacific War. Fortunately, outstanding historians like Jon Parschall and John Lundstrum and H.P. Willmont have made excellent strides in bridging that gap.
If you are serious about writing a historical novel, you need to understand the context and the flow of the campaign. Reading one pilot’s memoirs is not going to give you that.
Once you do your homework, I will be happy to provide you copies of the Japanese records and pilot interviews from the Solomons and Rabaul air campaigns that I have.
John Bruning